tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post6282919613368796272..comments2023-11-22T01:14:54.298-08:00Comments on amor mundi: Ten Reasons to Take Seriously the Transhumanists, Singularitarians, Techno-Immortalists, Nano-Cornucopiasts and Other Assorted Robot Cultists and White Guys of "The Future"Dale Carricohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-34520481887665486792018-04-15T14:01:15.281-07:002018-04-15T14:01:15.281-07:00I hope you continue to live your beautiful and obv...I hope you continue to live your beautiful and obviously rewarding life.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-62190074503374222632018-04-14T10:42:36.833-07:002018-04-14T10:42:36.833-07:00Thank you for the informative discussion, Dale. Th...Thank you for the informative discussion, Dale. Though I have to say, I felt it was missing something. Something very crucial to every worthwhile discussion... Hmmm... Wait, I know! Diversity! Yes, that explains a lot. You see, the problem is that you, Dale, are a hideously white cishet-passing male. Surely that amount of patriarchal privilege looms over every thought you're ever had. I guess that's why we made so little progress. But not to worry, I'll carry on! Next time I'll try to get my ludditism from a transsexual Ugandan midget. Who knows, they might actually answer a question or two.<br /><br />PS Even your own ilk thinks that you can't write for shite (check the recent posts on Reddit's SneerClub). <br /><br />PPS Sorry for the late reply, I was on my third vacation this year. My investments in AI companies sure pay a pretty penny. ;) MrSingularitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-64711888411596691172018-02-22T16:15:11.719-08:002018-02-22T16:15:11.719-08:00You get the last word, and it is the last. I don&#...You get the last word, and it is the last. I don't care what you think, and I am not interested in convincing you of anything. Draw whatever dire conclusions you want from that. This isn't my first trip to the rodeo with futurological time-wasters. And no smiley face for you.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-87252820607943894672018-02-22T14:22:30.111-08:002018-02-22T14:22:30.111-08:00My personal life extension strategy is not to wast...<i>My personal life extension strategy is not to waste another minute of my life taking people who utter that sort of line seriously</i><br /><br />Notice I said 'hypothetical'. I specifically said that, so you wouldn't have to interpret that particular scenario as an actual event. And if you object to that number, fine, make it a hundred and thirty. The point (question) still stands and you keep dodging it. If life extension beyond our current biological limit were possible and attainable, how would you feel about that? That is a serious question. <br /><br /><i>Death denialism</i><br /><br />If you die at the age of one thousand, you're still dead.<br /><br /><i>Your insinuation that these extensive arguments of mine and so many others with far wider audiences than I ever had amount to unsupported declarations of a connection "somehow" between "tech"-talk and racism, misogyny, militarism, corporatism and the rest...</i><br /><br />Later on, in this very comment, you hope that future legislative action will 'make me pay' for some nebulous wrongs that I might commit. Clearly you are identifying something unscrupulously evil about the mere wish to live a thousand years. I can only conclude that you stand by those declarations. <br /><br /><i>...reveals you to be a troll, but we both knew that already anyway, didn't we?</i><br /><br />One post ago you casually likened/linked me to the 'alt-reich' and you did so out of the blue. As a matter of fact, you can't even write a full paragraph without insulating somebody or something. And I'm the troll? Golly!<br /><br /><i>go ahead, believe in your techno-immortalist dreams for all the good it does you.</i><br /><br />I've never said that I believe in any of it. That's not how I roll. And that 'immortalist' bit is a full on non-sequitur, because literally nothing that I've said is related to immortality. Hell, ever Kurzweil doesn't believe in immortality.<br /><br /><i>I just hope that if and when you indulge in actual fraud there will be laws to make you pay for the harm you do</i><br /><br />I personally believe in humane rehabilitation. :) Why don't you?MrSingularitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-88133167524356252812018-02-22T09:40:19.221-08:002018-02-22T09:40:19.221-08:00I'll give you hypothetical. Let's say that...<i>I'll give you hypothetical. Let's say that somebody invents a medical procedure that would allow humans to live about a thousands years. What would you say to that?</i><br /><br />My personal life extension strategy is not to waste another minute of my life taking people who utter that sort of line seriously, because every one of those minutes is a minute I won't get back. <br /><br /><i>I thought that such wishes were intrinsically pathological and evil. You know, somehow related to racism, misogyny, eugenics, corporatism, heteronormativity, militarism, manspreading, etc.</i><br /><br />Death denialism indeed tends to lodge somewhere between the simply sad and the truly pathological in my experience, but if you manage to be an exception I am happy for you. In my past writings I have exposed endless rationalizations for right wing politics, racist and eugenicist attitudes, and the rest among the transhumanist futurologists, and critiques of now prevalent VC-tech discourse (of which the tranhumanists are just an extreme and clarifying variation) documenting such connections are everywhere these days. Nobody needs to read my old writings to discern these connections nowadays, and frankly it's been a while since I have written about any of this. <br /><br />Your insinuation that these extensive arguments of mine and so many others with far wider audiences than I ever had amount to unsupported declarations of a connection "somehow" between "tech"-talk and racism, misogyny, militarism, corporatism and the rest reveals you to be a troll, but we both knew that already anyway, didn't we? It's all so predictable and tiring, this is why I don't do this anymore. By all means, go ahead, believe in your techno-immortalist dreams for all the good it does you. I just hope that if and when you indulge in actual fraud there will be laws to make you pay for the harm you do, and that citizens are waking up in time to the damage done in the name of deregulatary tech disruption and platform monopolies and the re-feudalizing dismantlement of public education, social supports, and the rest for upward failing sociopathic assholes drawn to futurological fictions in the first place.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-47456711817195053672018-02-22T08:37:58.441-08:002018-02-22T08:37:58.441-08:001. I think we are all well aware of the fact that ...1. I think we are all well aware of the fact that you don't oppose standard modern medicine. I'll be more specific. On what grounds do you deny the possible efficacy of biomedical projects that seek to combat human senescence? Alphabet's Calico, SENS Research Foundation, BioViva, Sierra Sciences, Buck Institute and the like. For instance, of Alphabet's Calico, you've said: 'nobody is likely to live a single year longer because tech CEOs are promoting futurological rhetoric'. Describing it as a waste of money. Money which would be better spent on 'real healthcare' and such.<br /><br />2. Ok, then... I'll give you hypothetical. Let's say that somebody invents a medical procedure that would allow humans to live about a thousands years. What would you say to that? <br /><br />3. You don't care? Are sure about that? I thought that such wishes were intrinsically pathological and evil. You know, somehow related to racism, misogyny, eugenics, corporatism, heteronormativity, militarism, manspreading, etc. But if you truly don't care, I'm happy to hear that.MrSingularitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-7802222442721949492018-02-21T14:53:42.010-08:002018-02-21T14:53:42.010-08:001. To the extent that real medicine cures disease ...1. To the extent that real medicine cures disease and extends the lives of those with access to it, clearly I don't say (or "insinuate") such things are impossible at all, indeed I advocate strongly for wider access to healthcare and more public investment in legitimate medical research. Most of what futurists mean by life extension is con-artistry about digital uploading and nanobotic wish-fulfillment and overpromising based on fraudulent extrapolations from qualified research results in various biomedical fields, etc. <br /><br />2. It has already child to every child of two that a healthy life is better than an unhealthy one and that curing diseases and improving quality of life are good things -- futurists like to pretend that those of us who do not fall for their scams somehow disapprove of healthcare. <br /><br />3. I don't care how many of the eighty or so years of life you will likely live (if you are lucky enough not to be poor or marginalized or living in an overexploited region of the world) wishing you could live a thousand years instead -- but if you lie about the likelihood of your wish coming true or about the scientific status of your faith-based pronouncements about magic sooper-techs rendering the likelihood estimates of your living a thousand years don't expect me fall for it. <br /><br />These days I don't spend much time explicitly decrying this kind of futurological bullshit -- the useful idiots of transhumanism have by now mostly been discredited and banished back to the alt-reich and other cul-de-sacs, while the VC tech-bazillionaires have distilled that sad sub(cult)ure to its money-grabbing re-feudalizing sociopathic essence for the world to recoil from (possibly too late, but I think not).Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-69759019857468763432018-02-21T09:45:00.687-08:002018-02-21T09:45:00.687-08:00Dale, I have three questions for you.
1. Why do k...Dale, I have three questions for you.<br /><br />1. Why do keep insinuating that life extension is impossible?<br /><br />2. Why do you think that life extension is undesirable and/or immoral?<br /><br />3. What exactly is wrong with wishing for a longer lifespan? For instance, if I want to live a thousand years, on what grounds would you object to that wish? MrSingularitynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-90261031804096261472011-11-11T08:55:23.916-08:002011-11-11T08:55:23.916-08:00Check yourself before you wreck yourself.Check yourself before you wreck yourself.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-74913463051021778322011-11-11T00:37:51.025-08:002011-11-11T00:37:51.025-08:00Ah yes, the more stupidity I have the more there i...Ah yes, the more stupidity I have the more there is left to learn. You on the other hand seem to have learned a lot acquiring your doctorate, compared to me just a lowly undergraduate. So tell me, what can I do to rid myself of this stupidity if it isn't something to be proud of?Drosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15663347278329045941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-76684706700100334862011-11-08T06:05:18.854-08:002011-11-08T06:05:18.854-08:00I like how proud you are of your stupidity.I like how proud you are of your stupidity.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-86190623695597441142011-11-08T05:43:22.167-08:002011-11-08T05:43:22.167-08:00I dunno man, maybe I could take your arguments ser...I dunno man, maybe I could take your arguments seriously if you weren't A) So clearly in love with the sight of your own text and B)Could actually put together a blog that wasn't so painful to look at. I find it delightfully apt that I ought to demand that you, "Get with the times!"Drosshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15663347278329045941noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-69203244134275145192011-10-13T00:53:43.866-07:002011-10-13T00:53:43.866-07:00Hey thanks for the prompt reply.
First of all It&#...Hey thanks for the prompt reply.<br />First of all It's exactly 2 years I am reading amor mundi because I like especially the section "Superlative summary" and your opinions about the "issue" in question. For people like me, who don't speak english on a native language level, is difficult to understand sometimes properly your articles.<br />For exemple I've totally missed the bioconservative section...because it took me some time to analize and undestand the articles.<br />After your response I'm more motivated to read all the "bioconservative bestiary". <br />Keep up the good work.<br /><br />I'll post some links to really interesting discussions, like the one Mark Gubrud has with the extropian or the one PZ Meyers has with Kurzweil.<br />Please read it if you find some free time.<br /><br />http://futurisms.thenewatlantis.com/2010/06/why-transhumanism-wont-work.html<br />------------------------------------<br />http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/singularly_silly_singularity.php<br /><br />http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/08/kurzweil_still_doesnt_understa.php<br />------------------------------------<br />Maybe if you're interested you can check this out:<br /><br /><br />http://listserv.sc.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307A&L=NANOTALK&P=R3707<br /><br />Download : Bursting the Balloon v1.1.doc <br />-------------------------------------<br /><br />Daniel Dinello: TechnophobiaWolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16234538285962892223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-86883211917429515492011-10-12T09:24:43.976-07:002011-10-12T09:24:43.976-07:00What matters more is that we don't need "...What matters more is that we don't need "The Future" of the futurologists, whether that "The Future" is pined for or feared. <br /><br />I briefly discussed Joy's essay in a piece from way way back, <a href="http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2006/03/technology-and-terror.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>, written at a time when I am embarrassed to say I was rather more credulous about some futurological claims (I ferociously deride nano-cornucopism these days, for example). <br /><br />Joy -- along with a handful of bioconservative bioethicists like Kass and Fukuyama -- seem to me to be lost in the same distorted hyperbolic cul-de-sac as the transhumanists. "The Future" for supernative as for superlative futurological discourses is surreally mimetic, with the difference that the anti-transhumanists cower in fear as before a nightmare vision where the transhumanists indulge in an incessant circle-jerk before a wish-fulfillment fantasy. <br /><br />This complementarity is also evident in their respective eugenicisms (about which <a href="http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2008/01/eugenics-and-denigration-of-consent.html" rel="nofollow">more</a> here).<br /><br />I have noticed that bioconservatives tend toward the neoconservative right in their politics outside of technodevelopmental questions while the transhumanists tend toward the anarcho-capitalist right in their politics, often in consequence of a difference in the role of religious belief in their lives.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-48383759928825079332011-10-12T01:01:32.763-07:002011-10-12T01:01:32.763-07:00Dale, have you ever read Bill Joys "Why the f...Dale, have you ever read Bill Joys "Why the future doesn't need us"?<br /><br />It's extremely interesting and certainly worth of reading.Wolfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16234538285962892223noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-88793727581091439092011-09-12T10:57:18.880-07:002011-09-12T10:57:18.880-07:00Calling this a conversation or serious engagement ...Calling this a conversation or serious engagement with my arguments is insulting to me. I didn't let you get away with it, and now you feel insulted to have been exposed in the inadequacy of your effort and your understanding. If you had said anything substantive I would indeed discredit myself in refusing to address it, but you seem to want to take credit for a substance you have failed to demonstrate. I have standards and you have failed to meet them (hence, the "shrillness" and "arrogance" you sputter about). Don't worry, though, you will find plenty of reassurance back in the Robot Cult.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-33655830797656119962011-09-12T10:42:27.090-07:002011-09-12T10:42:27.090-07:00Until now i've been polite and respectful to y...Until now i've been polite and respectful to you, and you return insults and put-downs. <br /><br />Anyone reading this page will draw their own conclusions.<br /><br />You discredit yourself by your immaturity, shrillness and arrogance. Not the best way to go about convincing people your analysis is correct.<br /><br />I'm assuming you are the blog owner and moderator. Don't disappoint me further by failing to post this.<br /><br />Our conversation is over.richard holthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178048889919436536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-74766307668019765712011-09-12T09:22:24.279-07:002011-09-12T09:22:24.279-07:00on 'geo-engineering' to combat anthropogen...<i>on 'geo-engineering' to combat anthropogenic climate change... this is now becoming mainstream science</i><br /><br />You clearly are not sufficiently prepared to have a conversation with me. I have actually made arguments elsewhere in depth on all these topics. Needless to say, every post can't be an encyclopedic antipcipation of every idiot assertion you Robot Cultists are prone to make on every topic. Nevertheless, it isn't in any substantial sense providing information or an alternate viewpoint for you to make a series of bald assertions of belief in fututological faith-based initiatives as you are doing. Obviously, such assertions exist since it is their assertion that provides the prompt for my interventions in them, the actual arguments to which you are presumably responding. Re-asserting them in comments introduces nothing new into this conversation and manages merely to annoy me. At a minimum, you need to read a couple of my critiques of "geo-engineering" (or any of the other topics alluded to in this piece, to every one of which I have devoted countless pages), for example <a href="http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2010/08/geo-engineering-as-futurological.html" rel="nofollow">this</a> and <a href="http://amormundi.blogspot.com/2010/08/geo-engineering-is-declaration-of-war.html" rel="nofollow">this</a>, if you want to engage in a sustained and informed conversation with me at a greater level of specificity on these topics. This post provides a summary of the facets of my critique, putting them in one place, providing a sense of the inter-relations of dimensions of the critique. I assume a reader who is either well-versed in futurological claims or one who knows my critique well enough for these abbreviated formulations to draw on other more elaborated ones. If you want to dig deeper into the details of these separate topics you should go to the pieces where I too am digging into them. You cannot imagine I haven't already dispensed with objections at the facile level you are flinging willy-nilly here, can you? Now, please don't reply immediately. Read a bit more, reflect on your positions, else you are just wasting my time and cluttering up the Moot with noise.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-41960691352487226042011-09-12T09:06:25.594-07:002011-09-12T09:06:25.594-07:00Its possible to take more than one thing seriously...<i>Its possible to take more than one thing seriously.</i><br /><br />What a stunning insight. It remains true that nobody who wants to upload their brain into cyberspace or pop an five-century lifespan pill or have sex in the Holodek or live like a king by scooping up some dirt and throwing itnto their desktop nano-treasure maker or don their cognitive soopergenius headband is actually "doing" anything called science, policy, or philosophy. It's a scam to say otherwise and a sad delusion to believe otherwise. <br /><br /><i>Helicopter-dropped laptops and cellphones sounds like a publicity stunt -- but take away the helicopter and it sounds like a good idea to me.</i><br /><br />Do you even know what I am referring to? Do you even know even to grasp the extent to which you are embarrassing yourself? <br /><br /><i>I believe medical science may benefit from future resurrection attempts</i><br /><br />Christians believe their souls benefit from prayer and that they will live forever in heaven.<br /><br /><i>i also, more selfishly would love to see the distant future</i><br /><br />Well, you won't. Grow up.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-51693195052223899162011-09-12T08:55:33.952-07:002011-09-12T08:55:33.952-07:00Sorry to disappoint but my comments are not primar...<i>Sorry to disappoint but my comments are not primarily a conversation between us, but for others reading. Its more edifying for others to see two perspectives.</i><br /><br />It might be if you were making any kind of effort. You are not engaging in any depth with the arguments to which you are presumably responding.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-40410819655630700532011-09-12T06:02:18.969-07:002011-09-12T06:02:18.969-07:007 .. on 'geo-engineering' to combat anthro...7 .. on 'geo-engineering' to combat anthropogenic climate change... this is now becoming mainstream science, supported for example by the British Government and the British Royal Society (equivalent to the National Academy of Sciences). None of this means that the British government is giving up on its other carbon reducing initiatives and commitments - which unfortunately are inadequate, as is the case across the world. Sometimes the best approach to a problem is the scattergun approach. Try everything and see what works.richard holthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178048889919436536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-42323834717651413622011-09-12T05:55:08.797-07:002011-09-12T05:55:08.797-07:007.
Its possible to take more than one thing ser...7. <br /><br />Its possible to take more than one thing seriously. <br /><br />Helicopter-dropped laptops and cellphones sounds like a publicity stunt - but take away the helicopter and it sounds like a good idea to me. In Afghanistan it would be more cost effective to divide the Allied military costs per head of population and then donate it. This would would beat the Marshall plan hands down. <br /><br />But none of this has any relationship to the cryonics institute which i'm considering joining. I believe medical science may benefit from future resurrection attempts, and i also, more selfishly would love to see the distant future, even if the chances of this outcome are small.richard holthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178048889919436536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-68562076079466822652011-09-12T02:37:35.950-07:002011-09-12T02:37:35.950-07:00Sorry to disappoint but my comments are not primar...Sorry to disappoint but my comments are not primarily a conversation between us, but for others reading. Its more edifying for others to see two perspectives. <br /><br />I just don't see progressive struggle for a better world as incompatible with selected aspects of the transhumanist agenda. I am selective and i do attempt to follow a skeptical process of continuous reevaluation.<br /><br />I think we share enough common ground for this to be a good discussion rather than two people shouting at each other's deaf ears. <br /><br />I will be reading the material you have pointed me to.<br /><br />More to come :)richard holthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178048889919436536noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-82535496288738047222011-09-11T18:00:10.575-07:002011-09-11T18:00:10.575-07:00These last five comments don't strike me as ne...These last five comments don't strike me as nearly as interesting as the earlier ones. Here's my summary of your "intervention":<br /><br />"Fraud is bad and maybe not and how much are we talking about and anyway everybody does it, techno-immortalists and nano-cornucopiasts are really just entrepreneurs hell let's see what happens, marketing is fine and everybody does it, anti-intellectualism is a problem but maybe not really, narcissism is unpleasant but everybody is narcissistic, neo-cons suck but whatever, I know you say a lot about superlative futurologists being wish-fulfillment fantasists but I say they're not and anyway so what so there."<br /><br />Aren't you embarrassed? Look, I don't expect everybody to agree with me but if you want to say you are responding to a piece you should actually, you know, respond to it. I like a good challenging conversation, you didn't do too badly last night. But I'm disappointed and bored with these. Now, don't sulk. Make an effort or be off with you.Dale Carricohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02811055279887722298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5956838.post-13601972266065514612011-09-11T17:18:33.097-07:002011-09-11T17:18:33.097-07:006. I don't like the neo-cons either. I'm ...6. I don't like the neo-cons either. I'm all in favour of serious science policy deliberation carried out by experts and polymaths. If this makes me an elitist then so be it.<br /><br />Narcissism is an ugly characteristic, but not unique to technologists. More importantly the value of contributions to society is not diminished by the over-inflated ego, narcissistic personality, or selfish motivations of their creator. Just as the quality of Wagner's music is not diminished by his anti-semitism. <br /><br />Futurists do seek 'wish-fulfillment'. This is only a bad thing if their wishes will harm other people. America was founded with the proud declaration that people have a right to 'life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness'.richard holthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01178048889919436536noreply@blogger.com