Using Technology to Deepen Democracy, Using Democracy to Ensure Technology Benefits Us All

Saturday, September 01, 2012

It's Not Just Robot Cultists, Bioconservatives Hate Amor Mundi Too

WARNING: Butt Babies discussed in the comments to this post.
Upgraded and adapted from the Moot, more for old time's sake than anything else, Homophobic Bioconservative and Official Self-Appointed Enemy of Amor Mundi John Howard has swooped in from his secret location, no doubt among twink pornsites, to offer another variation on what long-time readers here will recognize as a familiar theme:
Insisting on an equal right to reproduce with someone regardless of their sex is also "conceptually incoherent, pseudo-scientific, pathologically symptomatic, and politically reactionary" but that doesn't stop you does it? You just say that as long as it is safe, wanted, and consensual, then it should be allowed, regardless of the risks to the child, the costs to society, the effects on culture. It's completely incoherent to put same-sex reproductive rights at the very tip top of priorities, when it can't even be done and might never be possible. It is as far-fetched as bringing a frozen brain back to life someday. But you do more than just rhapsodize about lifeway diversity and celebrate people who would choose to do it, like the Robot Cultists do, you make it the essential plank of government, refusing to compromise, putting civilization at risk. This is a real world situation that you could fix, but instead you chose to join the Robot Cultists when the chips are down.
What you claim is a "tip top priority" of mine is something that is not a priority of mine at all. The "right" to access to a non-existing technique you claim I "insist" on is something I don't insist on at all and I don't even remotely see how it could constitute a right.

All things equal, I certainly have no more problem with queers than straight folks adopting wanted kids, queers than straights making recourse to surrogacy, lesbians than straight folks making recourse to artificial insemination or IVF. I do think there is evidence of exploitation and misinformation and other harm in the global traffic of adoption, surrogacy, and egg harvestation, all of which calls for more regulation and monitoring, but I don't think queerness or straightness comes into it. Some people speak of "reproductive cloning" but the techniques that seem remotely viable have been determined to be unsafe and are rightly banned. If other techniques arrive, if they are judged actually safe, then they should be made available to those who want them and forced on no one, straight or not. There is nothing about the participation of queer folks in making families that "risks children" or "puts civilization at risk."

Nobody has to join a Robot Cult to advocate equitable consensual access to actually safe, actually available, actually wanted therapies, nor to demand their regulation for safety at every stage of development and use. (Why on earth would they?) This is straightforward equitable consensual heathcare advocacy. Heck, my position advocating single payer is probably more out of the American mainstream than my position on access to ARTs (alternative/artificial reproductive techniques).

You have posted these homophobic freakouts on my blog and at other places where I have been published with alarming regularity. You keep attributing views to me that I do not hold at all, let alone prioritize. You have problems, John Howard, you hear voices in your head, you have a strange fascination with queer copulation that would possibly be better addressed with the help of a therapist than in these bizarre harangues in my comments section.

5 comments:

Dale Carrico said...

For those who are interested, the, er, dialogue continued on a bit:

John Howard said...

I insist on having a right to procreate with my spouse using our own genes to make genetic offspring together, so if you don't insist on having a right to procreate with your spouse, then stop saying you want equal rights. I am not insisting on having a right to unsafe technology, or even any technology at all, I just want the approval of the concept of making children together, the right, the green light, and approval and support after it happens. I do not want my right to have sex and make offspring with my wife equated to my right to make offspring with a man.

Civil Unions defined as "marriage minus conception rights" would make it possible to resolve the marriage debate and improve the actual lives of thousands of real couples right now. Don't choose incoherence and fantasy over science and society, endorse the compromise already, if you oppose Transhumanism that is. 1:35 PM

Dale Carrico said...

What are you talking about? Do you think I think I am arguing for a "right" to re-write reality in the image of a world in which I can have butt babies when my boyfriend fucks me up the ass? I don't want butt babies. Nobody on earth is fighting for butt babies. You don't have to define civil unions as "marriage minus conception rights" if you want to protect the world from spontaneously re-scrambling itself into suddenly making butt babies possible when they are not possible. Neither do you have to define civil unions as "marriage minus rights to go to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry."

Everybody on earth but you hears about your crusade and thinks you surely mean to attack the rights of queer folks to adopt kids or have kids via ARTs -- which is obviously evil homophobic bullshit on your part. Frankly, I think your weird jeremiad against imaginary same-sex reproduction technology is also evil homophobic bullshit, but equally important is the fact that you are freaking out about things that don't even exist and then attributing views to other people they do not hold in public places.

Get help. All further comments from you will be deleted unread. 2:09 PM

John Howard said...

I'm not talking about any of the ways people have children now, I'm only talking about using artificial gametes to create offspring from two people of the same sex. It wouldn't happen spontaneously in anyone's butt, it would happen in a lab using stem cells and hormone baths to produce sperm from a woman's cells or eggs from a man's, and then surrogates or artificial wombs to gestate them. 4:36 PM

Dale Carrico said...

Same-sex reproduction using cyborg gametes doesn't exist, you're pulling this whole thing out of your own butt, it is your own special butt baby. Newflash! That's my point you homophobic freakjob! Okay, okay, I promise, that's the last one I'm letting through. They're just so hilarious I find it seriously hard to resist.

jimf said...

> WARNING: Butt Babies discussed in the comments to this post.

"I will tell you a Joke about Jewel and Mary
It is neither a Joke nor a Story
For Rubin and Charles has married two girls
But Billy has married a boy
The girlies he had tried on every Side
But none could he get to agree
All was in vain he went home again
And since that is married to Natty
So Billy and Natty agreed very well
And mama’s well pleased at the match
The egg it is laid but Natty’s afraid
The Shell is So Soft that it never will hatch
But Betsy she said you Cursed bald head
My Suitor you never Can be
Beside your low crotch proclaims you a botch
And that never Can answer for me"

-- from "The Chronicles of Reuben",
Abraham Lincoln (age 19)

(quoted in _The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln_,
by C. A. Tripp, 2005)

"Tripp identified the 'egg' here as a 'jelly-baby',
vernacular for the imagined result of anal sex
between two men, a result that could not produce
a baby."

-- from the "Critical Overview: Lincoln,
Sex, and the Scholars" fourth preface to the
above volume

jimf said...

> It wouldn't happen spontaneously in anyone's butt, it would
> happen in a lab using stem cells and hormone baths to produce
> sperm from a woman's cells or eggs from a man's, and then
> surrogates or artificial wombs to gestate them.

Putting aside for the moment that this isn't on the medical/
technological horizon; nor is anybody advocating or soliciting
research funds for such a thing, and it certainly is **not**
part of any "gay agenda", explicit or covert, that I've ever
heard of -- where's the beef, if it could be done?

Unless there's some specific medical or practical reason why it
wouldn't be a good idea (genetic damage inflicted during the course
of manufacturing those artificial sperm or egg cells, or the
procedure being just too damned expensive, or whatever) -- what's the
big deal?

The genetic combination-lock-spinning and gene-shuffling that's
the reputed "purpose" (evolutionary advantage) of sex in the
first place would still be happening, so -- so what?

(The idea just squicks you out, I guess -- that's "so what".
T'aint natural. Goes against God's Holy Ordinance -- babies
come from the Sons of Adam and the Daughters of Eve, and So
Mote It Be, or some such thing. Too much like the parentage
of Nicolae Carpathia in the _Left Behind_ books. Might
create the Antichrist!)

Now cloning -- I can sort of understand why that might not be
such a great idea, even apart from any possible negative biological
effects from the procedure. For one thing, I would very much
suspect the motivations and psychological health of anybody
who wanted to be cloned and raise a clone offspring (Narcissistic
Personality Disorder, much?) And I'd worry about the
resentments that might be inculcated in a clone child who might get
the idea he was some kind of vanity exhibit for a parent,
or who ended up feeling deprived of the chances (for good or
ill) of his own genetic roll of the dice.

Dale Carrico said...

Putting aside for the moment that this isn't on the medical/
technological horizon


Of course, this is the key gesture, isn't it?

The problem is that when we shift from discussion of actually existing problems and actually emerging techniques -- actually emerging in the sense of literally proximately emerging in ways that exert felt pressures on the present -- what we find ourselves doing is having profoundly dishonest, symptomatic, symbolic discussions about present fears/ fantasies under the guise of discussion about problems "of the future" that actually have no real or separate existence.

The actual stakes and consequences become impossible to delineate or deliberate about in reasonable ways. In art this sort of alienation from the present can make a potent discursive field out of which people find new ways to imagine who they might be or how people might form new affiliations and so on. But this is not the way the assessment of practical instrumental or political problems takes place.

Futurological "predictions" and "scenarios" are not like scientific hypotheses, because hypotheses solicit practices of public testing. It isn't an accident that "futurology" is connected to "futures" trading which is forever trying to find techniques through which to pretend highly speculative bets are more scientific than not.

Likewise, actual legislation is accountable to the citizens whose actual shared problems it is proposed to solve in the face of a diversity of stakeholders (well ideally so, and it tends to be better the closer this ideal is approximated in practice).

Until actual testing and actual funding and actual regulation is happening, that is to say, until discussions are circumscribed by actually existing stakeholders bringing evidences to bear available to public scrutiny, projections are unmoored, they just testify to wishes and fears, they are scarcely adjudicable at all.

Dale Carrico said...

Again, my familiar comparison to advertizing discourse is instructive. Advertizing pretends to inform consumers about differences between competing products so that they can make better decisions, but in reality advertizing tries to solicit brand loyalty and associate products with "youth" "happiness" "sexiness" "romance" so that consumers will be seduced into incorporating products into their projects of narrative self-creation.

Of course, Diesel jeans won't actually make you sexy, Pepsi won't actually make you young, drinking Starbucks coffee isn't actually romantic, but these failures do not falsify and abolish the advertizing mobilized by these conceits because advertizing is not operating in an instrumental but in a cultural mode (identification/ dis-identification facilitated through sub(cult)ural signalling).

Neither will "technology" make you young, or rich, or infallible: "The Future" isn't a return to the plenitide of Mommy's breast where technology is taking you if only you buy, buy, buy and stop thinking of actual problems. Nor is it to anybody's benefit to disavow the anxieties of older people occasioned by the rising generation by simply freaking out about designer babies instead, or to disavow the anxieties of falling working class quality of life and the plutocratic war on organized labor by simply freaking out about robots instead, or to disavow anxieties about wealth concentration and falling class mobility by simply freaking out about 3Dprinters or nanotech superabundance, or to disavow anxieties about the contingency in our lives or our proneness to miscommunication, humiliation, or error by simply freaking out about artificial superintelligence instead, or to disavow anxieties about mortality and freaking out about cryonics and deathists instead.

We should actually have discussions about the problems that actually beset us in their actual terms to the actual diversity of their stakeholders. We should actually solve shared problems that beset, not distract ourselves from the problems instead nor react to them in symptomatic or symbolic forms that never connect to actually adjudicable realities.

Every instrumental expertise has a foresight dimension, because in understanding the world as it besets us from a specific problematizing/empowering disciplinary vantage we arrive at general (warranted but contingent) principles we provisionally apply to novel circumstances. But there is no expertise in "foresight" as such apart from all actual knowledge-forming disciplines. There is no "futurology" as a discipline apart from other disciplines, because there is no future with an independent existence to exert some kind of gravitational pull on the present.

Futurity names the material openness IN THE PRESENT produced by the diversity of stakeholders sharing, contesting, collaborating, experiencing, investing it, the disciplines are playing out IN THE PRESENT, directing themselves to the delineation and solution of problems and possibilities adjudicated IN THE PRESENT.

The present is always already opening onto what is next, projection into "greater" distances is always just an effort to disavow or confuse or distract from the force of futurity in the present, shaped by actual stakeholders attesting to actual conditions in ongoing struggle.