Thursday, March 13, 2008

Mortality

Upgraded from the Moot, in direct response to a denial of the assertion made in the first sentence.

You are, indeed, absolutely, and most certainly going to die, as will everybody else reading these words.

Genetic and prosthetic techniques will likely increase human longevity for some lucky humans, possibly in quite unprecedented ways, but that is another story.

And in any case I doubt very much that even the luckiest beneficiaries of such technique will acquire sufficient "superlongevity" to feel less keenly the existential dilemma and demand of mortality as such in consequence of these interventions.

(I am leaving to the side of this post the actually interesting questions of budgetary and regulatory priorities distributing the risks, costs, and benefits of emerging medical techniques -- as well as neglected ones -- in ways that are more fair, more democratizing, more emancipatory. I'm focusing here instead, for the moment, on much broader questions, many of which seem to me rather more silly than anything else.)

It is rather flabbergasting that one has to say these things to truly intelligent and earnest people, but when there are techno-immortalists and other Superlative technocentrics among one's readership these things become surreally necessary.

Not to put too fine a point on it, I think that it is an awfully good idea to come to terms with mortality sooner rather than later, else one become one of those unfortunate people who are not only mortal -- as we all are -- but manage to become less alive in life than they otherwise could be, either for an obsessive concern with mortality (a concern that distorts priorities outward from there) or an hysterical denial of the facts of mortality (a denial that spreads ignorance outward from there) that are the usual unfortunate and altogether unnecessary alternatives to coming to terms with it.

This is not to say that I am personally thrilled at the prospect of my own mortality (since being alive seems to me pretty much the only game in town), or, worse, many of the particular physiological pathways through which mortality tends to exhibit itself (some of which certainly seem pretty awful indeed). Nor do I believe that disease and mortality confer some special dignity or wisdom on a suffering humanity that could not find some equal or better occasion in an always flourishing humanity if that were our lot (as very obviously it is not), although it does seem to me a weird kind of unkindness, not to mention blindness, to deny that it is in coping with suffering and mortality that many actually existing human beings have found and do indeed still seem to find their way to that last best measure of dignity, wisdom, and meaning their lives will ever testify to. It is not only dumb but also awfully mean to deny these realities.

Again, these seem to me obvious rather than earthshattering insights, and their denial or denigration, frankly, much more infantile than daring.

29 comments:

  1. Dale dear, if you want to die, please do. I will be very sorry;-)

    But please don't tell me what to do. If I have any choice, I will not die, or at least not quite yet. Of course I realize that the probability of having a choice, at this moment in time, is vanishingly small.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Anonymous1:01 PM

    I'm going to die? What a helpful bit of news, thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  3. More important than the imperceptible probability of your having a choice, it seems to me, is the fact that were your faith-based fantasy to play out, and were you to have such a choice, you would have that choice as a result of your privileged position in society, the converse of which means that such a choice would necessarily be denied to the vast majority of your species. But then, you wouldn't be part of this species anymore, would you?

    Personally, I prefer the religions that are easily identifiable as religions to the ones that purport such scientificity as to be understood in some way as other than matters of mere faith.

    I wonder what aspects of this life the >Hist "community" (I use quotes because I’m skeptical that real community can exist where it is not rooted in some aspect of reality) misses altogether by virtue of what seems to be their exclusive focus on a fantasy future. Humanity in general certainly misses out on the contributions that could be made by such intelligent folk to already existing Human problems that could (and arguably must at least in part) be dealt with through the opportunities presented by emerging technologies. The fact that such intelligence seems to have no interest in dealing with the surmountable problems that already face us begs, I think, a questioning of the earnestness of such folk.

    In the same way that I wouldn't want to go to a heaven to which the rest of my species wasn't invited, I wouldn't want to become a mehum if the opportunity wasn't available to everyone. That means that dealing with the changeable structural inequities that produce the unnecessary miseries of the majority of my species has to come first. When that's done, maybe I'll think about how to upload my brain, or consider cultivating a heroin habit. In the mean time, there's real shit to do.

    "They'll be pie in the sky when you die."

    ReplyDelete
  4. opps; meant to say pohum (or whateverthefuck) in paragraph 3).

    ReplyDelete
  5. Something I sent to Dale a few years ago. It's gotta lotta
    quotes, and yes, Giulio, some of 'em have religious overtones.

    Subject: The Great Escape

    Dale,

    You wrote:

    > I also happen to think it is deeply mistaken
    > for technophiles to confuse the idea of the
    > likely prosthetic prolongation of lifespan
    > through medical means with the essentially
    > theological notion of immortality in the first
    > place. "Immortality" seems to me a notion
    > freighted with implications, confusions, hopes,
    > and significances that prosthetic prolongation
    > does not in fact speak to at all. Nor should
    > it really want to take that business on as
    > far as I can see.

    Yes, the eliding of "prolongation" into a
    theologically-freighted "immortality" happens
    repeatedly, nearly always unremarked-upon, on
    the Extropians' and SL4 (I suppose the analysis
    taboo comes from the fact that to note the
    confusion would be to risk breaking the spell,
    and cause pain to those who've pinned their
    eschatological hopes on what they themselves
    would defend as Science and Rationality).

    Eliezer's lament for his brother contains a
    particularly clear example of this:

    "I used to say: 'I have four living grandparents
    and I intend to have four living grandparents when
    the last star in the Milky Way burns out.'"
    http://bbs.extropy.org/index.php?board=69;action=display;threadid=59764

    But what about that last star? Would death, even
    after a trillion years (putting aside the staggering
    assumption of any significant continuity between a
    human mind and a consciousness that could encompass
    a trillion years), be any easier to bear?

    I see from my e-mail archive that I've quoted some of
    this before, but it's worth repeating:


    ------------------------
    The fact that we can die, that we can be
    ill at all, is what perplexes us; the fact
    that we now for a moment live and are well
    is irrelevant to that perplexity. We need
    a life not correlated with death, a health
    not liable to illness, a kind of good that
    will not perish, a good in fact that flies
    beyond the Goods of nature...

    This sadness lies at the heart of every
    merely positivistic, agnostic, or naturalistic
    scheme of philosophy. Let sanguine
    healthy-mindedness do its best with its
    strange power of living in the moment and
    ignoring and forgetting, still the evil
    background is really there to be thought
    of, and the skull will grin in at the banquet.
    In the practical life of the individual,
    we know how his whole gloom or glee about
    any present fact depends on the remoter
    schemes and hopes with which it stands
    related. Its significance and framing
    give it the chief part of its value. Let
    it be known to lead nowhere, and however
    agreeable it may be in its immediacy,
    its glow and gilding vanish...

    The lustre of the present hour is always
    borrowed from the background of possibilities
    it goes with. Let our common experiences
    be enveloped in an eternal moral order; let
    our suffering have an immortal significance;
    let Heaven smile upon the earth, and deities
    pay their visits; let faith and hope be
    the atmosphere which man breathes in; -- and
    his days pass by with zest; they stir with
    prospects, they thrill with remoter values.
    Place round them on the contrary the
    curdling cold and gloom and absence of all
    permanent meaning which for pure naturalism
    and the popular science evolutionism of our
    time are all that is visible ultimately,
    and the thrill stops short, or turns rather
    to anxious trembling.

    For naturalism, fed on recent cosmological
    speculations, mankind is in a position
    similar to that of a set of people living
    on a frozen lake, surrounded by cliffs over
    which there is no escape, yet knowing that
    little by little the ice is melting, and
    the inevitable day drawing near when the
    last film of it will disappear, and to be
    drowned ignominiously will be the human
    creature's portion. The merrier the skating,
    the warmer and more sparkling the sun by
    day, and the ruddier the bonfires at night,
    the more poignant the sadness with which
    one must take in the meaning of the total
    situation.

    William James, _The Varieties of Religious Experience_,
    Lectures VI and VII
    "The Sick Soul"
    ( http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/james/james6.htm )


    ------------------------
    Oh, for Pete's sake. The crypto-religious manner in
    which you've defined 'immortality' ('can't die, won't die')
    makes that 'hypothesis' a contradiction in terms for
    anything made of parts. In the real world -- any
    real world we can conceive, I'd venture to say -- any
    conscious being has to be built out of parts, ... [and] ...
    that complex organization must be prey to
    disruption...

    Damien Broderick, on the Extropians'
    mailing list.
    http://www.lucifer.com/exi-lists/extropians/2227.html


    ------------------------
    "'Thus far, then, I perceive that the great difference between
    Elves and Men is in the speed of the end. In this only.
    For if you deem that for the Eldar there is no death
    ineluctable, you err.

    'Now none of us know, though the Valar may know, the future
    of Arda, or how long it is ordained to endure. But it
    will not endure for ever. It was made by Eru, but He is
    not in it. The One only has no limits. Arda, and
    Ea itself, must therefore be bounded. You see us,
    the Eldar, still in the first ages of our being, and the
    end is far off. As maybe among you death may seem to a young
    man in his strength; save that we have long years of life
    and thought already behind us. But the end will come. That
    we all know. And then we must die; we must perish utterly,
    it seems, for we belong to Arda (in hroa [body] and fea [soul]).
    And beyond that what? "The going out to no return," as you
    say; "the uttermost end, the irremediable loss"?

    ...

    'And yet at least ours is slow-footed, you would say?' said
    Finrod. 'True. But it is not clear that a foreseen doom
    long delayed is in all ways a lighter burden than one that
    comes soon'"

    -- J. R. R. Tolkien, "Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth",
    in _Morgoth's Ring_, Vol. 10 of _The History of Middle-earth_


    ------------------------
    "What had seemed to us at first the irresistible march of
    god-like world-spirits, with all the resources of the universe
    in their hands and all eternity before them, was now
    gradually revealed in very different guise. The great advance
    in mental calibre, and the attainment of communal mentality
    throughout the cosmos, had brought a change in the experience
    of time. The temporal reach of the mind had been very
    greatly extended. The awakened worlds experienced an aeon
    as a mere crowded day. They were aware of time's passage
    as a man in a canoe might have cognizance of a river which in
    its upper reaches is sluggish but subsequently breaks into
    rapids and becomes swifter and swifter, till, at no great
    distance ahead, it must plunge in a final cataract down
    to the sea... Comparing the little respite that remained with
    the great work which they passionately desired to accomplish,
    namely the full awakening of the cosmical spirit, they saw
    that at best there was no time to spare, and that, more
    probably, it was already too late to accomplish the task...

    The sense of the fated incompleteness of all creatures and
    of all their achievements gave... a charm, a sanctity,
    as of some short-lived and delicate flower."

    -- Olaf Stapledon, _Star Maker_
    Chapter X, "A Vision of the Galaxy"



    I do not, myself, believe that Christian metaphysics,
    in our day, make a plausible story of how the
    universe works. But at least the Christians do not
    indulge themselves in this confusion (and it's one
    quasi-respectable reason why a **serious** Christian
    might be an implacable enemy of life-extension technology,
    if such a thing ever became possible, though I suppose
    that if that technological temptation ever came to pass,
    many nominal Christians would feel they could afford
    to trade in their old religion for a shiny new one).


    ------------------------
    "[I]t is only in reading the work myself (with criticisms
    in mind) that I become aware of the dominance of the
    theme of Death. But certainly Death is not an Enemy!
    I said, or meant to say, that the ‘message’ was the
    hideous peril of confusing true ‘immortality’ with
    limitless serial longevity. Freedom from time, and
    clinging to Time. The confusion is the work of the Enemy,
    and one of the chief causes of human disaster. Compare
    the death of Aragorn with a Ringwraith. The Elves
    call ‘death’ the Gift of God (to Men). Their temptation
    is different: towards a fainéant melancholy, burdened
    with Memory, leading to an attempt to halt Time."

    _The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien_
    No. 207, to C. Ouboter, 10 April 1958


    ------------------------
    "Death . . . is a safety-device because, once Man
    has fallen, natural immortality would be the one utterly
    hopeless destiny for him. Aided to the surrender
    that he must make by no external necessity of
    Death, free (if you call it freedom) to rivet faster
    and faster about himself through unending centuries
    the chains of his own pride and lust and of the
    nightmare civilizations which these build up in
    ever-increasing power and complication, he
    would progress from being merely a fallen man
    to being a fiend, possibly beyond all modes of
    redemption."

    C. S. Lewis, _Miracles_,
    Chapter 14 "The Grand Miracle", p. 210


    ------------------------
    "The time was ripe. From the point
    of view which is accepted in Hell, the whole
    history of our Earth had led up to this moment.
    There was now at last a real chance for fallen Man
    to shake off that limitation of his powers which mercy
    had imposed upon him as a protection from the full
    results of his fall. If this succeeded, Hell would be
    at last incarnate. Bad men, while still in the body,
    still crawling on this little globe, would enter that state
    which, heretofore, they had entered only after
    death, would have the diuturnity and power of evil
    spirits. Nature, all over the globe of Tellus, would
    become their slave; and of that dominion no end,
    before the end of time itself, could be certainly
    foreseen."

    C. S. Lewis, _That Hideous Strength_, p. 203


    ------------------------
    "The story of Ayesha [in H. Rider Haggard's _She_]
    is not an escape, but it is about escape;
    about an attempt at the great escape,
    daringly made and terribly frustrated.
    Its closest relative, perhaps its child, is Morris's
    _Well at the World's End_, which came ten years
    later. Both stories externalise the same
    psychological forces; our irreconcilable reluctance
    to die, our craving for an immortality in the flesh,
    our empirical knowledge that this is impossible,
    our intermittent awareness that it is not even
    really desirable, and (octaves deeper than all
    these) a very primitive feeling that the attempt,
    if it could be made, would be unlawful and would
    call down the vengeance of the gods. In both
    books the wild, transporting, and (we feel)
    forbidden hope is aroused. When fruition seems
    almost in sight, horrifying disaster shatters our
    dream. . ."

    C. S. Lewis, _On Stories (And Other Essays On Literature)_,
    "The Mythopoeic Gift of Rider Haggard", pp. 98-100


    ------------------------
    Mr. [Sherwood E.] Wirt [of the Billy Graham Evangelistic
    Association, Ltd., interviewing C. S. Lewis on 7 May 1963,
    about 7 months before Lewis's death]:

    What do you think is going to happen in the next
    few years of history, Mr. Lewis?

    Lewis: I have no way of knowing. My primary field is the
    past. I travel with my back to the engine, and that makes it
    difficult when you try to steer. The world might stop in ten
    minutes; meanwhile, we are to go on doing our duty.
    The great thing is to be found at one's post as a child of
    God, living each day as though it were our last, but
    planning as though our world might last a hundred
    years.

    We have, of course, the assurance of the New Testament
    regarding things to come. I find it difficult to keep from
    laughing when I find people worrying about future
    destruction of some kind or other. Didn't they know they
    were going to die anyway? Apparently not. My wife
    once asked a young woman friend whether she had
    ever thought of death, and she replied, 'By the time
    I reach that age science will have done something
    about it!'

    C. S. Lewis, "Cross Examination",
    from _God in the Dock_, p. 266


    ------------------------
    "What does war do to death? It certainly does not
    make it more frequent: 100 percent of us die and the
    percentage cannot be increased. Yet war does do
    something to death. It forces us to remember it.
    The only reason that cancer at sixty or paralysis
    at 75 do not bother us is that we forget them. …
    All schemes of happiness centered in this world
    were always doomed to final frustration. In ordinary
    times only a wise man can realize it. Now the
    stupidest of us knows."

    C. S. Lewis, "Learning in War-Time," in
    _The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses_
    p. 53



    --shrug--

    Not that I myself wouldn't take advantage of whatever life-prolonging
    technology becomes available. As I said once on the list,
    if I could toddle through an Introdus portal [a Greg Egan
    upload interface] with a swipe of the
    credit card same as everybody else is doing, I'd probably
    do it, for the same reason I go to work in the morning,
    or go to the dentist regularly, or change the oil in the car,
    or keep the computer backed up -- namely, to avoid or
    postpone unpleasant consequences.

    ReplyDelete
  6. giulio said:

    But please don't tell me what to do.

    No one is telling you what to do. However, I would simply suggest that, while a person should be and hopefully is free to engage in "life extension strategies" it would be wise if that same person also rationally and emotionally comes to terms with his or her own mortality otherwise risk facing heart-wrenching confusion and despair rather than Zen-like serenity when at death's door...

    One way to do this is to see death, especially involuntary death, as a tragedy we should work to overcome, but also as the return to nature of our elements, and the end of our existence as individuals. The forms of "afterlife" available to humans are natural ones, in the natural world. Our actions, our ideas and memories of us live on, according to what we do in our lives. Our genes live on in our families, and our elements are endlessly recycled in nature...

    ReplyDelete
  7. Dale dear, if you want to die, please do.

    Again, facing facts isn't exactly the same thing as smacking my lips in joyous expectation at the near-term prospect.

    But please don't tell me what to do.

    It isn't me but reality that makes you mortal. And the denial of reality will not make you immortal. Don't blame me, pout and stamp at reality for all the good it will do you.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I'm going to die? What a helpful bit of news, thanks!

    I quite sympathize with the spirit of your comment, Anonymous. But as you will likely see from comments that accumulate here, this is news to some people, and news they can indeed use if they want to live lives of sanity.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Re: "Humanity in general certainly misses out on the contributions that could be made by such intelligent folk to already existing Human problems that could (and arguably must at least in part) be dealt with through the opportunities presented by emerging technologies... there's real shit to do"

    This is certainly a good point. I have two different answers to offer:

    1) We also do other things besides writing about transhumanism you know. I take care of my family, see my friends, run a business, play games, read books, watch movies, write about other subjects, write a novel, organize events, collaborate with cultural organizations and also, as I have shamelessly admitted here a couple of days ago, also poop and fart. In the past I have been involved, at times quite intensely, with political initiatives that you would probably approve of, and will probably be involved in similar initiative in the future. I don't think transhumanist advocacy takes more than 5% of my time.

    2) What about writers, artists, musicians, singers, football players, actors, cooks, porn stars, street performers, fashion designers, ice cream sellers, [list of hundreds of things that people do]. Doesn't the world need variety? I think the world is interesting because there are so many people with so many different interests, and somehow good things emerge from their crossed lives.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Re: "while a person should be and hopefully is free to engage in "life extension strategies" it would be wise if that same person also rationally and emotionally comes to terms with his or her own mortality"

    Of course, and I often use mental devices similar to those you suggest.

    And others. One of my favorites is thinking that, in some fundamental sense of being alive, thinking thoughts and feeling feelings, every "I am" is basically the same and after I die, even if nobody will remember my memories, there will still be conscious beings thinking thoughts and feeling feelings similar to my own, and in some sense they will "be me".

    By the way I first found this beautiful concept in a Rudy Rucker book: Infinity and the mind. Too bad in Lifebox he seems to have abandoned it. Also Greg Egan hints at it in Permutation City (Peer).

    There are _many_ mental devices that we use to come to terms with our mortality. What is wrong with one more?

    ReplyDelete
  11. There are _many_ mental devices that we use to come to terms with our mortality. What is wrong with one more?

    Nothing unless the one proposed actually has the opposite effect which is what I would argue hysterical forms of immortalist discourse have had on many people.

    Even transhumanist Buddhist guru George Dvorksy warned his readers about this fact in an old Betterhumans essay (which I can't seem to find).

    ReplyDelete
  12. Giulio Prisco wrote:

    > I don't think transhumanist advocacy takes more than 5% of my time.

    I hear an echo of Woodrow Wyatt's interview with Bertrand Russell,
    in which Russell remarks "I should like to say, by preface, that
    only about 1 percent of my writing is concerned with sex, but
    the conventional public is so obsessed with sex that it hasn't
    noticed the other 99% of my writing. . . And I think 1% is a
    reasonable proportion of human interest to be devoted to sex."
    ;->

    I'm glad to hear you have a well-balanced life. Probably, in fact,
    better balanced, by conventional standards, than mine.

    The trouble is that you seem to be (rather heedlessly and unconcernedly)
    advocating a -- well, let's call it a cluster of hopes -- that
    have, in the past, accounted for more than 5% of human suffering.


    http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20010225202650.03763.00000620%40ng-fo1.aol.com
    -------------------------------
    From: JoatSimeon (joatsimeon@aol.com)
    Subject: Re: SM Stirling on the Singularity Re: REVIEW: Vernor Vinge's "Across Realtime"
    Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
    Date: 2001-02-25 17:28:56 PST

    The essentially religous/metaphysical nature of Vinge's construct is further
    shown by the reactions of extreme denial and frenzied horror when someone
    points out that the emperor has no clothes.

    What's behind this stuff is not rational thought, but emotional longings for
    immortality and transcendence -- the usual factors sustaining religious belief.

    Evolution has played a cruel joke on us by making us continually aware of our
    own impending nonexistance, while at the same time making us fear and dread
    death.

    So much of human culture has sprung from this...
    -- S.M. Stirling


    http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20010227013442.00400.00000101%40ng-fk1.aol.com
    -------------------------------
    From: JoatSimeon (joatsimeon@aol.com)
    Subject: Re: SM Stirling on the Singularity Re: REVIEW: Vernor Vinge's "Across
    Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
    Date: 2001-02-26 22:37:33 PST

    . . .

    Humans go into their worst killing frenzies when possessed by precisely the
    desire for transcendence or various forms of projective immortality. . .

    -- S.M. Stirling

    ReplyDelete
  13. Charo is 67 today.

    "I want to go to Heaven. Many times I think now nice that
    will be -- to be an espirit, and to wiggle out of the body."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sixJx1YmyU

    Coochie coochie.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Anonymous4:45 PM

    I agree that immortality is an ideal, an abstraction that concrete experience will manifest only roughly, at best. We'll die, or experience something analogous -- either by choice or force.

    But how long will we live? How well will we live? When we die, to what extent will death have the same effects on identity and consciousness that it now appears to have? How long will we remain dead? How will our understanding of death continue to evolve?

    I can imagine a future in which many forms of death have no more practical consequence than sleep, although I suspect that, even then, other forms of death, with varying probabilities, will haunt our horizons. Of course, imagining such a future does not, in itself, make it so or possible. On the other hand, some futures may necessitate our faith for their realization -- our will and perseverence to create them.

    Superlatives, although poorly esteemed here, are powerful linguistic tools. They are a sort of meta-abstraction. We group all of our experience together into something called "life". We imagine that life extended a year, then two, and so on until, for economy, we call the idea "immortality". We imagine that life better fulfilled, then better still, until, again for economy, we might call the idea "eternal" not only in quantity, but also in quality. The power of these ideas is obvious to all who are familiar with religion. Where there is power, there is opportunity both for benefit and detriment -- not just detriment.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Dale wrote:

    > ['Anonymous' wrote:]
    >
    > > I'm going to die? What a helpful bit of news, thanks!
    >
    > I quite sympathize with the spirit of your comment, Anonymous.
    > But as you will likely see from comments that accumulate here,
    > this is news to some people. . .

    "I believe that I will live forever... It is a cellular
    certainty, almost biological, it flows with my blood
    and permeates every niche of my being. I can do
    anything I choose to do and excel in it. What I
    do, what I excel at, what I achieve depends only
    on my volition. There is no other determinant."

    -- Sam Vaknin, "Grandiosity Deconstructed"
    http://samvak.tripod.com/journal9.html

    ReplyDelete
  16. > "I want to go to Heaven. . .

    This is a better link:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCpbhJwOJ64

    ;->

    ReplyDelete
  17. A post of my own, inspired by this one.

    ReplyDelete
  18. I think the most important thing to derive from the reality and inevitability of death is doubt as to the validity of birth - by which I mean the creation of sentient life by any means. I would think that some of the specific forms of death are already enough to make the deliberate creation of a being susceptible to such experiences immoral.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Lincoln's post:

    As usual, you say what I mean much better than I could say it.

    ReplyDelete
  20. Here is a webcomic that satirizes transhumanism (I think):

    http://dresdencodak.com/

    So far as this debate is concerned:

    Dying is an aesthetic choice. To spend one's time, energy, and money to divert death is not so much fantastical or irrational as it is aesthetically inelegant, much like a beer swilling redneck at a california wine tasting.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Re: "The trouble is that you seem to be (rather heedlessly and unconcernedly) advocating a -- well, let's call it a cluster of hopes -- that have, in the past, accounted for more than 5% of human suffering."

    That is not my intention. The cluster of hopes that I wish to advocate is one that results in more human happiness, _without_ the historically related cluster of hatred and fears that have accounted for much human suffering.

    Perhaps what I want to say is too difficult to write, or perhaps (more likely) I am just a bad writer who should consider attending Dale's class before writing more.

    ReplyDelete
  22. Jackie wrote:

    > Dying is an aesthetic choice. To spend one's time, energy, and money to
    > divert death is not so much fantastical or irrational as it is
    > aesthetically inelegant, much like a beer swilling redneck at a california
    > wine tasting.

    Presumably what you mean here is that the manner in which one
    accepts (or does not accept) dying is an aesthetic choice.

    Whether or not one is going to die (in the long run, and often
    in the short run) is not a choice at all.

    The process of death is often far from "aesthetic", in any conceivable
    sense of the word.

    The "aesthetic" death seems largely to be an artifact of fiction.

    --------------------------

    The Third Age ended thus in victory and hope; and yet grievous among
    the sorrows of that Age was the parting of Elrond and Arwen, for they
    were sundered by the Sea and by a doom beyond the end of the world.
    When the Great Ring was unmade and the Three were shorn of their power,
    then Elrond grew weary at last and forsook Middle-earth, never to return.
    But Arwen became as a mortal woman, and yet it was not her lot to die
    until all that she had gained was lost.

    As Queen of Elves and Men she dwelt with Aragorn for six-score years
    in great glory and bliss; yet at last he felt the approach of old age
    and knew that the span of his life-days was drawing to an end, long
    though it had been. Then Aragorn said to Arwen:

    "At last, Lady Evenstar, fairest in this world, and most beloved,
    my world is fading. Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the
    time of payment draws near."

    Arwen knew well what he intended, and long had foreseen it; nonetheless
    she was overborne by her grief. "Would you then, lord, before your time
    leave your people that live by your word?" she said.

    "Not before my time," he answered. "For if I will not go now, then I must
    soon go perforce. And Eldarion our son is a man full-ripe for kingship."

    Then going to the House of the Kings in the Silent Street, Aragorn laid
    him down on the long bed that had been prepared for him. There he said
    farewell to Eldarion, and gave into his hands the winged crown of Gondor
    and the sceptre of Arnor, and then all left him save Arwen, and she stood
    alone by his bed. And for all her wisdom and lineage she could not forbear
    to plead with him to stay yet for a while. She was not yet weary of her days,
    and thus she tasted the bitterness of the mortality that she had taken upon her.

    "Lady Undómiel," said Aragorn, "the hour is indeed hard, yet it was made
    even in that day when we met under the white birches in the garden of Elrond
    where none now walk. And on the hill of Cerin Amroth when we forsook both
    the Shadow and the Twilight this doom we accepted. Take counsel with yourself,
    beloved, and ask whether you would indeed have me wait until I wither and
    fall from my high seat unmanned and witless. Nay, lady, I am the last of
    the Númenoreans and the latest King of the Elder Days; and to me has been
    given not only a span thrice that of Men of Middle-earth, but also the grace
    to go at my will, and give back the gift. Now, therefore, I will sleep.

    "I speak no comfort to you, for there is no comfort for such pain within
    the circles of the world. The uttermost choice is before you: to repent and
    go to the Havens and bear away into the West the memory of our days together
    that shall there be evergreen but never more than memory; or else to abide
    the Doom of Men."

    "Nay, dear lord," she said, "that choice is long over. There is now no ship
    that would bear the hence, and I must indeed abide the Doom of Men, whether I
    will or I nill: the loss and the silence. But I say to you, King of the Númenoreans,
    not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools
    I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say,
    the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

    "So it seems," he said. "But let us not be overthrown at the final test, who of
    old renounced the Shadow and the Ring. In sorrow we must go, but not in despair.
    Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is
    more than memory, Farewell!"

    "Estel, Estel!" she cried, and with that even as he took her hand and kissed it,
    he fell into sleep. Then a great beauty was revealed in him, so that all who after
    came there looked on him in wonder; for they saw that the grace of his youth,
    and the valour of his manhood, and the wisdom and majesty of his age were blended together.
    And long there he lay, an image of the splendour of the Kings of Men in glory undimmed
    before the breaking of the world.

    But Arwen went forth from the House, and the light of her eyes was quenched,
    and it seemed to her people that she had become cold and grey as nightfall in winter
    that comes without a star. Then she said farewell to Eldarion, and to her daughters,
    and to all whom she had loved; and she went out from the city of Minas Tirith
    and passed away to the land of Lórien, and dwelt there alone under the fading trees
    until winter came. Galadriel had passed away and Celeborn also was gone,
    and the land was silent.

    There at last when the mallorn-leaves were falling, but spring had not yet come,
    she laid herself to rest upon Cerin Amroth; and there is her green grave, until the
    world is changed, and all the days of her life are utterly forgotten by men
    that come after, and elanor and niphredil bloom no more east of the Sea.

    Here ends this tale, as it has come to us from the South; and with the passing
    of Evenstar no more is said in this book of the days of old.

    -- J. R. R. Tolkien, "The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen"

    ReplyDelete
  23. Anonymous8:26 AM

    The hand raised to finish the dying God is the sign of the oath to the resurrecting God. Why choose death as your superlative?

    ReplyDelete
  24. Mitchell wrote:

    > I think the most important thing to derive from the
    > reality and inevitability of death is doubt as to the
    > validity of birth - by which I mean the creation of sentient
    > life by any means. I would think that some of the specific
    > forms of death are already enough to make the deliberate
    > creation of a being susceptible to such experiences immoral.

    You've got a point, there.


    "Come, what do we gain by evasions? We are under the harrow
    and can't escape. Reality, looked at steadily, is unbearable.
    And how or why did such a reality blossom (or fester) here
    and there into the terrible phenomenon called consciousness?
    Why did it produce things like us who can see it and, seeing it,
    recoil in loathing? Who (stranger still) want to see it and
    take pains to find it out, even when no need compels them
    and even though the sight of it makes an incurable ulcer in
    their hearts? People. . . who would have truth at any price."

    -- C. S. Lewis, _A Grief Observed_

    ReplyDelete
  25. Lincoln Cannon wrote:

    > The power of these ideas is obvious to all who are
    > familiar with religion. Where there is power, there is
    > opportunity both for benefit and detriment -- not just
    > detriment.

    Giulio Prisco wrote:

    > The cluster of hopes that I wish to advocate is one that
    > results in more human happiness, _without_ the historically
    > related cluster of hatred and fears that have accounted
    > for much human suffering.

    Maybe. But launching a "movement" is playing with fire.

    Maybe Giulio isn't fully aware of just how crazy things
    are in the U.S. these days. Then again, it hasn't been
    **that** long since Mussolini. Any little nudge that jibes
    with the Zeitgeist surrounding Terrorism (TM) these days
    is **potentially** liable to be amplified into a conflagration.

    There has already been rhetoric -- provocative, inflammatory --
    on the >Hist lists that could conceivably, in an unlucky future,
    lead to grief. There have been folks saying such overheated
    things as "Delaying, either by actively hindering or by not
    contributing to, the Singularity is tantamount to mass murder --
    it means that potentially billions of people will die who
    would not otherwise have died!" Or, "Pursuing this line of
    A.I. research is criminally irresponsible! It's bound to lead
    to a runaway Unfriendly A.I.!" The former sounds to me like
    religious fanaticism, while the latter sounds like the
    Unabomber.

    Now you could say that these particular people are just
    twerpy kids with delusions of genius waving their, well,
    whatever organs the testosterone has settled in, in public.
    True enough. But some of these same kids have now graduated
    to courting billionaires for money. Some of them have
    now taken up the Scientologists' ploy of hinting at legal
    actions against folks who criticize them in public (ask
    Dale about that). I say, look at **existing** cults -- the
    Scientologists, the various new-age LGATs (large-group awareness
    training companies -- like Keith Raniere's "Nexium") to
    see where it can end. The idiosyncratic **content** (life extension,
    AI, molecular nanotechnology) pales beside the **structural**
    similarities to unsavory cult organizations.

    And, as Dale has pointed out, it's not necessary! Existing
    avenues of medical research (or neuroscience, or computer
    science, or molecular biology, or solid-state physics, or
    materials science) will **not** be accelerated by these
    Extro or Transvision conferences, no matter how many Hollywood
    types or ex-Star Trek actors can be persuaded to speak at them.


    --------------------
    WOODROW WYATT: Lord Russell, what is your definition of
    fanaticism?

    BERTRAND RUSSELL: I should say that, uh, fanaticism
    consists in thinking some one matter so overwhelmingly
    important that it outweighs everything else at all.
    To take an example: I suppose all decent people dislike
    cruelty to dogs. But if you thought that cruelty to
    dogs was so atrocious that no other cruelty should be
    objected to in comparison, then you would be a fanatic.

    WYATT: But do you think this has happened a great
    deal in human history, that large groups of people have
    been seized with fanaticism?

    RUSSELL: Yes, it's happened at most periods, in most
    parts of the world. It's, uh, one of the diseases of
    the mind to which communities are subject.

    WYATT: Which would you say were some of the worst
    occasions?

    RUSSELL: There have been various occasions one could
    mention. Take anti-Semitism, that is one of the most
    dreadful, because that's -- the worst manifestations
    of that are recent, and were so dreadful one can hardly
    bear to think of them. Well, that -- though I know
    it isn't the right thing to say, it isn't **considered**
    the right thing to say -- but anti-Semitism **mainly**
    came in with Christianity. Before that there was
    very, very much less. But the moment the Roman government
    became Christian, it began to be anti-Semitic.

    WYATT: Why was that?

    RUSSELL: Because they said that, uh, the Jews killed
    Christ, and so it gave them a justification for hating
    the Jews. I've no doubt there really were economic
    motives, but that was the justification.

    WYATT: But, why do you think people **do** get seized in
    large numbers with fanaticism?

    RUSSELL: Well, it's partly that it gives you a cosy
    feeling of cooperation. A fanatical group all together
    have a comfortable feeling that they're all friends
    of each other. Uh, they're all very much excited about
    the same thing. You can see it in any, uh, political
    party -- there are always a fringe of fanatics in any
    political party -- and they feel awfully cosy with
    each other. And when that is spread about, and is
    combined with a propensity to hate some other group,
    you get fanaticism well-developed.

    WYATT: But might not fanaticism, at times, provide
    a kind of mainspring for good actions?

    RUSSELL: It provides a mainspring for actions, all
    right, but I can't think of any instance in history
    where it's provided a mainspring for good actions.
    Always, I think, for bad ones. Because it is partial,
    because it almost inevitably, um, involves some
    kind of hatred. You hate the people who don't share
    your fanaticism. It's, uh, almost inevitable.

    WYATT: Then, if it gets taken over by, uh, economic
    considerations, say the... like the Crusades, then fanaticism
    disappears and perhaps does no harm?

    RUSSELL: Well, I don't know, I... I can't, uh, think
    of any good that the Crusades did. The Crusades had,
    of course, two, uh, different streams in them -- a
    fanatical stream and an economic stream. The economic
    thing was very strong indeed, but it wouldn't have worked
    without the fanaticism. The fanaticism provided the
    troops, and the economic motive the generals, [Wyatt
    laughs] roughly speaking.

    WYATT: What part would you say that witchcraft has
    played in fanaticism?

    RUSSELL: Oh, witchcraft played a terrible, terrible
    part. Um, especially from, oh from about 1450 to
    about, uh, 1600. A little longer than 1600. A quite
    terrible part. There was a work called _The Hammer
    of Female Malefactors_, which was written by an
    eminent ecclesiastic, and, uh, inspired the most
    **mad** profusion of witch-hunts, which the people
    themselves believed. I think it's very likely that
    Joan of Arc believed she was a witch; certainly, a
    great many people condemned as witches did believe
    they were witches. And, uh, there was an enormous
    spread of cruelty. Now, Sir Thomas Browne, you
    would say, when you read his works, he seems like
    a very humane and cultivated person. But he, uh,
    actually took part in trials of witches, on the side
    of the prosecution, and he said that to deny witchcraft
    is a form of atheism, because after all the Bible
    says "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." And therefore,
    if you don't think it's right to burn them -- people
    you think witches -- you must be disbelieving in the
    Bible, and therefore be an atheist.

    WYATT: But how is it that quite sane people, on
    the surface at any rate, can be fanatical?

    RUSSELL: Well, uh, sanity is a relative term.
    Very, very few people are sane all through. Almost
    everybody has corners where they're mad. I remember,
    once, I was motoring in California on a very very
    wet day, and we picked up a pedestrian who was
    getting wet through, and he inveighed against all
    kinds of race prejudice. He said it was a most
    dreadful thing, and I entirely agreed with him.
    And then somebody mentioned the Philippines, and he
    said "All Filipinos are vile!" [Wyatt laughs]
    Well, you see, he had that little corner of insanity.

    WYATT: But why do you attach so much importance
    to the subject of fanaticism?

    RUSSELL: Because a very great part of the evils that
    the world is suffering are due to fanaticism. A very,
    very great part. Always has been so, and it's
    **worse** in the present day than it's ever been before.
    I don't mean fanaticism is more prevalent, but it
    is doing more harm than it has ever done before in
    human history.

    WYATT: Well, can you elaborate that a bit?

    RUSSELL: Yes, certainly. It deserves to be elaborated.
    I think that the East-West tension which is threatening
    us all in the most terrible fashion, is mainly due to
    fanatical belief in Communism or anti-Communism as
    the case may be. Both sides believe their own creed
    too strongly. They believe it, in the way that I defined
    as fanatical -- that they think, that is to say, that
    the **prevention** of what they regard as wicked on the
    other side is more important, even than the continued
    existence of the human race. And that is fanatical.
    And it is that fanaticism which is threatening us all --
    a fanaticism which exists on both sides.

    WYATT: What's your definition of toleration.

    RUSSELL: Toleration consists... Well, it, uh, varies
    according to what direction you're thinking...
    Toleration of **opinion**, if it's really full-blown,
    consists in not punishing any kind of opinion as long
    as it doesn't issue in some kind of criminal action.
    And, uh, toleration of opinion is the **first** form of
    toleration that arises.

    WYATT: Well can you, uh, give some illustrations of
    periods in history which have been tolerant?

    RUSSELL: Um, yes. And it really does begin with the
    end of the Thirty Years War. Um, it didn't begin
    in England 'til a little later because we were in
    the middle of our Civil War at that time. But it began
    very soon after that. And, uh, the first really tolerant
    state was Holland. All the leading intellects of the
    Seventeenth Century, at some period of their lives,
    had to take refuge in Holland. And if there hadn't
    been Holland they'd have been wiped out. The English
    were no better than other people at that **time**. There was
    a Parliamentary investigation which decided that Hobbes
    was very, very wicked, and it was decreed that no work
    by Hobbes was to be published in England. And it wasn't,
    'til a long, long time.

    WYATT: Would you say that ancient Athens was a tolerant
    state?

    RUSSELL: It was more or less tolerant. It was, uh, more tolerant
    than modern states were until the Eighteenth Century.
    But it was not, of course, **completely** tolerant. Everybody
    knows about Socrates being put to death. And apart from
    him there were other people... Uh, Anaxagoras had to fly.
    Aristotle had to fly after the death of Alexander. They
    were not wholly tolerant by any means.

    WYATT: But how is one to **know** when one's got to a
    tolerant period? I mean, how does one recognize this?

    RUSSELL: Oh, you recognize it by the... uh, the liberal freedoms:
    Free press, free thought, free, um, propaganda, freedom
    to read what you like, freedom to have whatever religion
    you like, or lack of religion.

    WYATT: But now, pretty well in the West, this exists
    today. And yet you were saying just now that we've never
    been in a period where there was more fanaticism.

    RUSSELL: Well, I don't think it's true that it exists.
    Uh, I mean, take for instance what they did in America,
    which was to go through all public libraries, and any
    book that gave any information about Russia was destroyed.
    And, uh, you can't call that exactly tolerant.

    WYATT: If you're not enthusiastic, you don't get
    things done, but if you're over-enthusiastic, you
    run the danger of becoming fanatical. Well, now, how
    do you make certain that what you're doing is all
    right, and that you haven't become, uh, in a fanatical
    state?

    RUSSELL: Certainty is not ascertainable. But what
    you can do, I think, is this: you can make it a
    principle that you will only act upon what you think
    is **probably** true... if it would be utterly disastrous
    if you were mistaken, then it is better to withhold
    action. I should apply that, for instance, to burning
    people at the stake. I think, uh, if the received
    theology of the Ages of Persecution had been **completely**
    true, it would've been a good act to burn heretics
    at the stake. But if there's the slightest little
    chance that it's not true, then you're doing a bad
    thing. And so, I think that's the sort of principle
    on which you've got to go.

    WYATT: Would this apply to political parties and
    governments?

    RUSSELL: Oh, certainly it would. I mean, everybody who
    belongs to a political party thinks the other party's
    in the wrong. But, uh, he wouldn't say "therefore,
    you have a right to go and assassinate them". You, uh...
    there are certain things you **may** do when you think a
    party's in the wrong, and certain things you mayn't.

    WYATT: But what do you think of the limits of toleration?
    I mean, you can get into a situation where you have
    complete license and chaos.

    RUSSELL: Well, the general principle **there** is,
    that, uh, people should be allowed to advocate any change
    in the law that they like. But in **general** --
    though I don't say this always, by any means -- in
    **general**, you should not permit the agitation for a
    definitely illegal action prior to a change in the law.
    You may advocate a change in the law, but you shouldn't
    advocate an act which is illegal while the law stands
    as it is. I don't say this as an absolute principle,
    but usually.
    --------------------

    "Bertrand Russell Speaking" 1959 52 min.
    Woodrow Wyatt Interviews
    Published in _Bertrand Russell Speaks His Mind_

    ReplyDelete
  26. Does anyone actually read jfehlinger's copy-and-paste-tastic comments?

    ReplyDelete
  27. Archangel Michael wrote:

    > Does anyone actually read jfehlinger's copy-and-paste-tastic comments?

    Why, exactly, do you care?

    Give it up, Michael -- you're not going to start the avalanche
    that will get me booted off this blog. There were moderators
    on WTA-talk sympathetic to your complaints, including Giulio Prisco.
    But not here.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Michael's recent slap at a, hm, graphomaniacal commenter on his own
    blog, was, I must admit, funny.

    > The length of your comments also make[s] me want to drink paint.
    >
    > If not anything else, conventional education is a way to
    > teach people social skills. Like how to not post Encyclopedia Boringatica
    > into these comments. . .

    If we're ever drinking at the same table, I'll have to
    make sure the management locks up the paint.

    (Michael seems to be getting a bit **edgier** as he gets
    older.)

    ReplyDelete