"Minimum Wages vs Universal Basic Income" my latest on @HuffPostBlog http://t.co/FoqsILUDo4 via @HuffPostPol pic.twitter.com/eA4F0dtPcM
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Basic Income AND a minimum wage pegged to inflation. Left BIG adds, right BIG dismantles.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol the biggest selling point of a #basicincome is the ending of minimum wage laws
— Gene Hosey (@artofclasswar) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol A person of the left should be skeptical of ANYONE for whom that is true.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol why if the #basicincome equals what a full time worker would on minimum wage?
— Gene Hosey (@artofclasswar) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Now? Always? Pegged to inflation? Withorwithout health/ed/welfare guarantees?
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar That's all important and part of the process of sitting down and all agreeing on the way forward.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar It will take struggle to accomplish this as it always does. I fear "the process" is bigger and harder than you say.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar It will definitely be a struggle & a very important one. But it's a struggle that needs to happen on both sides.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Democratization has ***always*** been a struggle against incumbent elites & anti-democratizing forces.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @dalecarrico @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Ending min wage laws is more 1% austerity. No good. #basicincome
— Ben Griffin (@bcwestmind) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @dalecarrico @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Ending min wage laws is the pt of Uber, not of a #basicincome
— Ben Griffin (@bcwestmind) August 11, 2015
@bcwestmind @artofclasswar @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol The uberite/libertopian BIG venn diagrams overlap for a reason.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Rightwing deregulatory BIG can amount to serfdom wo upward pressure on wages.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @2noame Yes! many conservatives like UBI because they think it will be cheaper than welfare. If it is, it will be insufficient
— Sander Philipse (@Sanderrp) August 11, 2015
@Sanderrp @2noame This is exactly right. And they think not just cheaper, but with deregulatory "streamlining" easier to abuse and game.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol #basicincome provides upward pressure on wages by making work voluntary
— Gene Hosey (@artofclasswar) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar @2noame @basicincome @HuffPostBlog @HuffPostPol Watch plutocrats define BASIC income as bare subsistence enforcing feudalism.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
the bad news for plutocrats is by definition we out number them https://t.co/pL2uLYveWO
— Gene Hosey (@artofclasswar) August 11, 2015
@artofclasswar The bad news for that bad news is that ideology works.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar There are plutocrats on both left & right. We need anti-plutocrat coalition who care more about people over gov.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Democracies are governments of, by, and for the people. I reject gov vs. people: I fight to democratize governments.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar Anyone, be they "right" or "left", should care most about actual outcomes. Our entire system is flawed w/o UBI.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Outcomes are shaped by intentions. Pretend to be beyond left and right and you become a tool of/shill for the right.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Those for whom BIG advocacy is about deregulation want fundamentally different things than those who want equality.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar In politics contingent coalitions on specific campaigns always possible & those win who know clearly what they want.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar Pretend one's only choice is being left or right and we divide ourselves into two incapable opposing factions.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar They won't mean the same thing, and this will matter whether you pretend it does or not.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar And both sides will increasingly call for basic income as automation's clock marches on. That is most important.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar BIG in your comment distracts us from plutocratic wealth-capture through attacks on organized labor NOT "automation."
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar "Automation" isn't one thing, "it" isn't inherently anti-democratizing. Politics distributes costs/risks/benefits.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Strong organized labor, nationalization of public goods, lifelong education, many ways to democratize "automation."
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar BIG can be a part of democratizing struggles, but one-size-fits-all technofixes are futurological cons; not serious.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar To sit and pretend basic income would not be superior to welfare is absurd. Means-testing doesn't work and harms
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar To say dismantling welfare and replacing it with BIG can always only be superior to welfare for majorities is absurd.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar Oh? Why? How so? And I'm also not defending the elimination of disability if that's a concern.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Obviously the superiority would depend on what is being called BIG and how it is implemented.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar Also, nothing is superior in equal measure to every stakeholder.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico @artofclasswar Right and a UBI needs to be above the poverty level to accomplish what we want it to accomplish.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar You assume "we" want to accomplish the same thing with BIG -- the very question in dispute between us.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar I disagree the role of BIG in democratic equity-in-diversity for me is the same as for BIG in deregulatory schemes.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar There are ideological disputes over what gets CALLED poverty you name as a neutral standard arbitrating BIG disputes.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico And making sure everyone has enough money to never starve can somehow be a bad thing because "not enough"?
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame If Basic Income guarantees just not starving in a deregulatory/privatized libertopian hellscape, no, indeed; "not enough."
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@dalecarrico @2noame There is no requirement that BI be the only public policy.
— USBIG (@USBIG) August 12, 2015
@USBIG @2noame I should think not! My point is that left and right ideological commitments will shape the other policies advocated with BIG.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@USBIG @2noame What BIG means, how it's implemented, how its costs/risks/benefits will be distributed are shaped ideologically/structurally.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@USBIG @2noame When BIG is framed as a post-political overcoming or technocratic circumvention of ideology this is always wrong & deceptive.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@USBIG @2noame I could be wrong but suspect/fear such disavowals are coming esp from techbro&libertopian precincts recently advocating BIG.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@2noame @artofclasswar For me BIG together with healthcare/education/civilrights secures scene of consent to everyday commerce in democracy.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico Great, so let's do that.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame I've written quite a lot about what that scene of consent demands. Nobody on the ideological right would agree with half of it.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame For instance: http://t.co/44kX6myFkp Ten Propositions on Taxes
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame Or, Left and Right: Back to Basics, http://t.co/AWbxCaoPQL
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 12, 2015
@dalecarrico I hear this so much it's ridiculous. "They won't agree to this." So much pointing to the other side & saying they're the fools.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@2noame I hear so much false equivalence/moderate middle from privileged folks denying differences that make a difference it's ridiculous.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame Again, you try to deride a call for clarity about actual assumptions as finger pointing and playground bullying.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame Look, I don't think you are a fool or some bad guy. I'm tweeting you because I assume you're reachable. That should be obvious.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
It seems to me you mistake denial of ideological differences as a way to get above them rather than just a blindness to their force. @2noame
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
This is pretty commonplace among those in positions of privilege (eg, white educated guys like me) who soak in invisible ideology. @2noame
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico I don't perceive you as taking issue with me personally. I do perceive you as taking issue with about 1/3 the population though
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico Again, not denying differences. I'm saying both sides are right and wrong about things. Each hold pieces of the puzzle.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
Care to specify the puzzle pieces you think the right-wing has that the left lacks for BIG advocacy in service of social justice? @2noame
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@2noame Democratization is a long struggle. Lots of victories along the path toward it. I think I'm with majorities on much that matters.
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
@dalecarrico Fully realized democracy is a great goal to struggle for, and I think we both know UBI will be another big step towards it.
— Scott Santens (@2noame) August 11, 2015
Again our dispute demonstrates we don't both "know" that! I am skeptical that BIG as deregulatory scheme is a step toward democracy. @2noame
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
New followers because of my comments on basic income? Read my: A Neoliberalization of Basic Income Discourse? http://t.co/ePzZlZx6Sk
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
New followers because of my comments on basic income? Read my: p2p Is Either Pay-to-Peer or Peers to Precarity: http://t.co/kMkv3rmLNp
— Dale Carrico (@dalecarrico) August 11, 2015
2 comments:
The whole idea that minimum wage can or should be eliminated rests on marginalist assumptions such as the mythical "zero marginal productivity" worker. The freshwater economists and their allies who promote these concepts are overtly hostile toward wage-earning people of both high and low income levels and any income support programs whose parameters are acceptable to them should most certainly be regarded as Trojan Horses.
We share a suspicion of those who pretend indifference to the differences between basic income advocates of the left (who see it as part of a program for social justice, what I call equity-in-diversity) against those of the right (who see it as part of a program of "efficient" deregulation, privatization, and eventual precarization) and I strongly agree with your choice of the rhetoric of the "Trojan Horse." It's a tell when someone claims to want BIG not to supplement but to replace minimum wages. Coupling "basic" guaranteed income to demolition of standards guaranteeing equity -- this goes to for those who claim healthcare, education, legal representation and so on would no longer be a right for those "unworthies" who mis-manage their BIG so as to no longer have recourse to these privatized services -- ensures that "basic" income amounts to subsistence, which means that right-wing and market libertarian (who are also right-wing despite their incessant claims to be "beyond left and right") advocates of BIG are commandeering the emancipatory aspirations of left advoactes of BIG in the service of a re-establishment of feudalism. The same old story it is always is with them, and exactly what anyone would expect who wasn't distracted in the usual manner by the neoliberal/futurological shiny object of a new-fangled policy technofix.
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