I think I am speaking for quite a few people here. The sooner we can congratulate you, Dale, on being dropped into a hole, the better. You are a waste of perfectly good carbon atoms. Death to deathists, so fulfill your destiny (die) soon. The sooner the better. We immortalists will happily carry on living (in whatever form and shape is in fashion).
It's now easy to see how the sensitivities of Robot Cultists of the techno-immortalist sect might be outraged by the epic-scaled disrespect I showed in my post a couple days back pointing out that frozen corpses are indeed dead. Hearts so suffused with generous sentiment can be tender to the touch.
At the risk of picking the scab, I find that I am moved, nonetheless, to register a few perplexities.
We immortalists will happily carry on living
Every self-described "immortalist" is nonetheless mortal. Calling yourself "immortalist" doesn't make you not mortal. Word-magic isn't real, after all, and it certainly isn't science. Not a single one of you Robot Cultists will "carry on living" any longer than anybody else just because you refuse to distinguish science from science fiction.
Death to deathists, so fulfill your destiny (die) soon. The sooner the better.
Unless you are proposing that hastening the deaths of public critics of your techno-immortalist sect of the Robot Cult should be put on the Futurological Program forthwith, it is hard to figure out what the substance of the slogan "Death to Deathists" finally amounts to.
If "deathists" are those who grant the inescapable fact of human mortality you surely realize that "deathists" already fully expect that death will come to them as it does everyone else. I doubt that many "deathists" are particularly thrilled with the prospect, but neither will it make much sense to them to diminish the lives available to them in futile deranging death-denialism.
You do realize, surely, that people don't die because they recognize that all humans are mortal? Mortality isn't actually a matter of a lack of "can do" futurological pep on our parts.
By the way, it really does seem to me that there is quite a difference between my own declaration that death-denialism is a form of irrationality that diminishes the life and sanity of those who are alive -- not to mention a rather embarrassing organized scam preying on the panicked, the ignorant, and the deluded -- as compared to your own declaration that you hope I die soon because I say things you disapprove of.
I don't doubt that you are indeed "speaking for quite a few people" in your Robot Cult in wishing a public critic of your Robot Cult dead. True Believers in a full froth of techno-transcendentalizing futurological faith are often like that. Still, though: not very nice.
Just so you guys know, I for one hope all the Robot Cultists live long healthy lives that give you enough time to come to terms with your limits, get out more, maybe get some therapy, come to see sense, become more useful members of society.
That's why I'm a secular democrat teaching critical thinking skills, that's why I insist on the democratization of technoscientific change, peer-to-peer, in my teaching and in my writing, that's why I advocate science education and more funding for real scientific and medical research, that's why I champion access-to-knowledge politics wherever I can, that's why I'm a vocal environmentalist, that's why I advocate for universal healthcare and basic income guarantees, that's why I deplore militarism, that's why I excoriate neoliberal financial fraudsters, scheming misinformational advertising discourses, and futurological bull-shit artists.
Robot Cultists declare themselves Champions of Science but they debauch science. Their techno-immortalist sects sow confusion and distract from legitimate research and the actually life-saving efforts of those who struggle instead to ensure access to healthcare and clean water and reliable information about treatments that help folks make more informed, consensual choices. Their Singularitarian sect deranges network security issues and to the extent that its aspirations (and those of cybernetic-totalism more generally) suffuse coding subcultures it leads to crappy software and wasteful gadget-fetishism emptying brains and swelling landfills. Their transhumanist sects are stealth-eugenicist when they aren't outright crowing eugenicist, and the Ayn Raelians of the Extropian transhumanist sect in particular are among the most fulminating free-market fundamentalists left on an earth scorched and blood-soaked by their slogans. Every single second public discourse defers to their geo-engineering and nano-cornucopiast sects is a second bringing the planet closer to the brink of catastrophe by substituting the spectacle of rich white guys masturbating for serious policy deliberation on actually unprecedented planetary crises.
It's not just that you wish me dead, and soon, because I vocally disapprove of you for reasons I publish and stand behind on their merits, such as they are, you Robot Cultists are also dealing deadly distraction and nonsense in media-friendly and incumbent-friendly future-schlock formulations on matters of radical technodevelopmental change at the worst, deadliest imaginable historical moment.
I hope I live a long full healthy life and I hope I contribute a measure to making such a long full healthy life available to as many of my planetary peers as a secular equitable diverse consensual sustainable democratic world can bear.
And you better believe I will never stop decrying dangerous deranging mainstream-neoliberal and superlative futurological nonsense so long as it continues doing its damage all the days of that life left to me. I think it's important work (and, often, thankfully, quite fun).
13 comments:
> I don't doubt that you are indeed "speaking for quite a few people"
> in your Robot Cult in wishing a public critic of your Robot Cult dead.
> True Believers in a full froth of techno-transcendentalizing futurological
> faith are often like that. Still, though: not very nice.
Ya gotta wonder where Michael Anissimov, that bleeding-heart lover of
humanity, who sniffles publicly upon being compared to a mosquito[*]
is when his compatriots weigh in that Dale (and other public critics
of transhumanism, cryonics, the Singularity, and all the rest) should die ASAP[**].
[*] The rhetorical baggage of which was not that he should be squashed like a bug
["You fools, I'll squash you like insects!" -- Gary Lockwood, as
transhuman "Gary Mitchell", in _Star Trek_ TOS second pilot "Where No
Man Has Gone Before" ;-> ], but rather that his PR spinning is
1) ubiquitous 2) of no more weight to a serious intellectual than
a small insect 3) whiningly, droningly repetitive as the sound
of a mosquito's wings.
[**] **This**, after all, is the sort of thing that "unnerves" critics
of transhumanism. **Not** the "idea" of mind uploads, or whatever.
http://www.google.com/groups?selm=20010227013442.00400.00000101%40ng-fk1.aol.com
From: JoatSimeon (joatsimeon@aol.com)
Subject: Re: SM Stirling on the Singularity Re: REVIEW: Vernor Vinge's "Across Realtime"
Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written
Date: 2001-02-26 22:37:33 PST
> Robert.Whelan
> JoatSimeon wrote:
> > What's behind this stuff is not rational thought, but emotional longings for
> > immortality and transcendence -- the usual factors sustaining religious belief.
>
> And since you know, rationally, that this need exists in human beings,
> then, rationally, you know it needs indulging. There's no rational
> thought behind the desire for food either.
-- no, actually. It's like the desire to kill people who annoy you --
generally speaking, it should be suppressed, even if that leads to
psychological stress... 8-).
Humans go into their worst killing frenzies when possessed by precisely the
desire for transcendence or various forms of projective immortality. . .
-- S.M. Stirling
I daresay Michael will get to spinning and damage-control lickety-split.
> You are a waste of perfectly good carbon atoms.
> Death to deathists. . . We immortalists will happily carry
> on living (in whatever form and shape is in fashion).
I was Googling desultorily the other day, and happened to stumble
on the blog of a self-described transhumanist who has coincidentally
served in Iraq:
http://willtoexist.com
("scribblings from a deist transhumanist libertarian minarchist
citizen soldier")
Much of what he posts and says about himself is your standard
transhumanist fare (including being a libertarian, gun enthusiast,
and amateur SF writer).
But give the guy credit -- he isn't completely tone deaf to his fellow
transhumanists. He draws the line in a book review (quoted below
at the end).
http://willtoexist.com/the-will-to-exists-information-desk/
----------------------------------
I’m male, 38, married, libertarian and a naturalized citizen. . .
http://willtoexist.com/gun-related-products-reviewed-here/
----------------------------------
The most popular blog entries I have written, the ones that
stand the test of time, are gun related entries. . .
I am a National Guardsman. . . as well as a member of a local
gun club. . .
http://trevorsnyder.com/index.php/writing
----------------------------------
I am currently working on a science fiction trilogy speculating about what
will happen to humanity pre and post Singularity. . . The Singularity is
to technologists what the Rapture is to Christians. . .
http://willtoexist.com/negative-reactions-to-transhumanism_1110/
----------------------------------
If there is a soul. . . then the sheer audacity
of believing we might one day be able to transfer it to another, longer
lasting vessel is not a sin. . . Every visionary throughout history
has been mocked. Some of them have needed bodyguards. If Ray Kurzweil ever does,
I’m his man. . .
http://willtoexist.com/i-want-to-believe_2210/
----------------------------------
I am a transhumanist and a singulartarian because both ideas make
sense to me. . .
I fail to understand why someone who thinks of him or herself as
a rationalist. . . would. . . label. . . a non-religious movement a cult.
That’s how John Horgan views us. . . Horgan concludes that “the last thing
humanity needs right now is an apocalyptic cult masquerading as science.”
Pardon me, sir, but what are you talking about?
Transhumanists and their cousins singularists, as I like to call them,
are not a cult. We just want to believe. Please – don’t associate
us with religious kooks.
http://willtoexist.com/machines-rule_2279/
----------------------------------
Worrying about what superintelligent machines will decide to do. . .
does not imbue my soul with a sense of foreboding. . .
I’m pretty sure that they aren’t going to move to Washington, D.C.
and spend all their time trying to micromanage my life. In fact,
I’m hoping they’ll kick those do-gooders and busybodies
out of their swamp. Bring on the machine intelligences!
http://willtoexist.com/the-immortalist-manifesto-by-elixxir_438/
----------------------------------
The ImmorTalist Manifesto: Stay Young and Save the World by “Elixxir”
As a transhumanist, I had high hopes for The ImmortTalist Manifesto. . .
This book is written at a high school level from a perspective of
arrogance and self-righteousness. . .
You doubt me? Read this:
> My childhood friends have all grown old, fat and ugly. I now
> look more like their son than their classmate or peer. I am still
> getting carded by bouncers at bars and clubs. I will outlive my
> enemies and marry their children.
The above is certainly not expressive of the attitude of a human being
with the potential to build a political alliance capable of changing
the world. . .
I’d probably commit suicide if a self-inflated narcissicist like
“Elixxir” ran the world.
"Transhumanists and their cousins (sic) singularists, as I like to call them, are not a cult. We just want to believe."
Clearly unclear on the concept of contradiction.
"I will outlive my enemies and marry their children."
Given the guy _some_ credit: not only is he a master logician, not only is he steeped in science, he's also well-read in literature: he can quote Conan the Barbarian! (no insult meant to the books and films themselves, which are extremely enjoyable pulp).
As I keep noting: we usually have to pay lots of money for entertainment of this quality! *wipes off tears of mirth*
If I'm thinking of the right guy, Medvedev has been a controversial figure even within transhumanism. I think they banned or at least censored him on the WTA-TALK list some years ago.
I don't think it is surprising at all that cryonics and transhumanism attract contrarians who are not well integrated into their surrounding social group already, nor that a large subset of these lack basic social skills. But it makes more sense to me that this is caused by the amount of social resistance, rather than that it should be cause for more social resistance.
Danila Medvedev appears to be the founder of the Russian version of the ongoing global cryonics con game. The Russian company, KrioRus, is no doubt intended for make benefit glorious bank account of Medvedev.
That aside, in Russia, corpsicles don't appear to have the accommodations they enjoy here in the States. Let's go visit grandpa's dewar, honey!
"Ya gotta wonder where Michael Anissimov, that bleeding-heart lover of humanity, who sniffles publicly upon being compared to a mosquito[*]
is when his compatriots weigh in that Dale (and other public critics
of transhumanism, cryonics, the Singularity, and all the rest) should die ASAP[**]."
I'm right here. I'm shocked and disappointed that Danila Medvedev wishes death upon Dale. I certainly hope he isn't speaking for "quite a few people". Many people in the world need to learn how to use courtesy and respect when it comes to dealing with others. Too bad that Danila has to give transhumanism a bad name by making such statements.
"I will outlive my enemies and marry their children."
He said 'marry' because 'have sex with' would have said way too much about his appetites.
"Not a single one of you Robot Cultists will "carry on living" any longer than anybody else just because you refuse to distinguish science from science fiction."
If I was missing your point I would say that FTL travel is science fiction whereas biostasis is not. Just because cryonics looks incredible to the casual observer on similar lines as FTL looks incredible does not mean they are in similar categories in a meaningful sense. A critical analysis of the two topics results in different sorts of issues. The issues of cryonics are engineering problems, not reality-benders.
Since your point was really about magical thinking, I will say that cryonics will not fail due solely to your lack of imagination as to how it might be successfully implemented, any more than it will succeed due to Danila's abiding faith that it will work.
Whatever cryonics does has zilch to do with belief or disbelief, and everything to do with the reality of the situation. Either it functions or does not. I can't speak for all cryonicists, or for my own subconscious necessarily, but my conscious and rational opinion is that this will only work if it is scientifically feasible to work. And if it is, I don't want to be wrong.
Either it functions or does not. I can't speak for all cryonicists, or for my own subconscious necessarily, but my conscious and rational opinion is that this will only work if it is scientifically feasible to work. And if it is, I don't want to be wrong.
And so Luke gives us a transhumanist update to Pascal's wager. Pascal, too, thought the afterlife was too important to be wrong about. And his reasoning is unassailable, except for the unfortunate fact that there is no afterlife.
Luke, would you like to recycle any other long-repudiated religious chestnuts to rationalize cryonics? I mean, there's some 5000 years worth of mystical tradition to draw from.
> What about cryonics specifically reminds you of a Ponzi scheme?
Well, one salient **difference** is that in a Ponzi scheme,
the early investors actually do make an impressive return on
their investment -- it's the substantially larger number
of later investors (if the scheme takes hold) who are left
holding the bag.
In cryonics, **all** the investors are left (so to speak) holding
the bag.
From up above:
> I will say that cryonics will not fail due solely to your lack of
> imagination as to how it might be successfully implemented, any
> more than it will succeed due to Danila's abiding faith that it
> will work.
That's perfectly true.
It's also true that a rational person might conclude that:
1) Bequeathing your own body (or head) and your estate
(or those of a relative) to a cryonics organization **today**
provides not even a Las Vegas gambler's chance of hitting the
jackpot (getting resurrected).
2) The activities of the cryonics organizations themselves
(and the money they collect from their "clients") are not
contributing in any conceivable way to the actual science
that might make it possible one day (if it is possible at all)
to suspend and then reanimate human beings.
3) Promulgation of cryonics as some sort of faith-based belief system
is not going to help the actual science behind it (if any)
progress any faster. Dale is quite right to say that hyperbolic
expectations surrounding technological issues tend to distort
and skew reasonable discussions about them in the here and now.
4) The behavior of the employees of cryonics organizations
reflects **their own** disbelief, deep down, that they're
doing anything other than relieving their clients of money.
The descriptions in _Frozen_ document this lack of respect
and professionalism toward their clients. The cryonics
outfits can't even be bothered to hire qualified perfusionists,
according to Melody Maxim. This is hardly surprising.
There is absolutely no standard of "quality assurance" in
cryonics, any more than there is a standard of "quality
assurance" in religious belief. ("Hey, I did everything
I was supposed to do to be a permanent guest in God's
Playboy Mansion. I'm gonna complain to my credit card
company!")
5) Cryonics does not really fit well with some of the other
transhumanistic and Singularitarian beliefs of its practitioners.
Even if some radically advanced future technology **could**
make it possible to reanimate dead early-21st-century humans,
the idea that a post-Singularity "superintelligence" **would**
do so (other than for archaeological reasons) seems
ludicrous. Why would they bother? (Are they gonna resurrect
the field mice and cockroaches too?). They're gonna do it
because Eliezer Yudkowsky **programmed** his "seed AI"
to **constrain** its "superintelligent" descendants to
do so? Give me a break!
> Whatever cryonics does has zilch to do with belief or disbelief,
> and everything to do with the reality of the situation. Either
> it functions or does not.
For some value of "functions". Right now, the "function" of signing
up for cryonic "suspension" has about as much to do with the actual reanimation of
human beings as the "function" of wearing a "Heaven's Gate Away Team" patch had to
do with space travel.
> this will only work if it is scientifically feasible to work. And if it is,
> I don't want to be wrong.
The modern Pascal's Wager, eh? There are **so many things** one could be
wrong about. Including (speaking as an atheist) the traditional versions
of the afterlife that so many evangelical Christians in this country
still profess to believe in. "The trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall
be raised incorruptible."
except for the unfortunate fact that there is no afterlife
"Life after death is as improbable as sex after marriage." Name the movie!
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